Wednesday, March 25, 2015

Religious Freedom and Restoration Act


       
     Many of my United Methodist clergy colleagues have considered this law bigotry, comparing it to denial of service to black Americans in the south before the passage of Civil Rights legislation. Given that many of my colleagues among Indiana UM clergy have taken to harsh rhetoric on this matter, I would like to share a few things that are designed to bring some reasonableness and objectivity to the law as passed in Indiana. I suppose I would like the rhetoric to tone down. I think of Romans 12:9-21, a few isolated comments: Love one another with brotherly affection ... Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty ... If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all."

            The point in the links that follow is to offer information in the hopes that everyone can discuss matters before the public and religious communities in a reasonable way. 

            The federal act involved is relatively brief and easy to read and understand in US Code 42 paragraph 2000bb. It says nothing about sexuality.

            I invite you to read the article in Wikipedia. Another simple history is in the Indianapolis Star. The surprising thing here is that Representative Chuck Shummer introduced the bill in the House and President Clinton signed it in 1993. It became the law of the land. It still applies to the Federal Government. However, the Supreme Court decided that Congress did not have jurisdiction to apply it to the states. Hence, the move to have states apply its principles within the states. Religious Liberty Archive has posted the states who have past their version of the law so that it does apply to the states.

            The Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty has been a strong supporter. It has held symposiums, and one is relatively recent. If you have the time, its video discussion is still available. The Roman Catholic Church has been a strong supporter, as have Orthodox Jews.

            Briefly, the point of the law is that no other law in the state is to place undue burden upon individuals that inhibit the practice of their religious faith. Many uses of the legislation over the years have protected Muslims and Native Americans. It has protected the Amish and Sikhs. It has recently protected Hobby Lobby from supplying insurance for abortion. Constitution Daily has a brief article regarding some of this as well. Here is an interesting and brief article on ten Americans helped by various renditions of RFRA. Here is an example from the state of Washington regarding a flower shop owner. Here is an imagined interview by Ross Douthat that seeks to explain that America should be large enough tolerate people with differing values.

            Of course, recently, the focus has been upon the effect of the legislation in Indiana on same-gender unions. The concern is that religious persons, right now mostly Christian, but it would include Islamic businesses as well, might discriminate in this area. I have been asked if this law reinstitutes the segregation laws of before the 1960s. The answer is no. In fact, to ask the question is to fail understand Jim Crow laws, so I have found this article to explain it. Briefly, Jim Crow forced business owners to discriminate against African Americans, and many private business owners resisted this action of government. This law gives religious people standing in court to make decisions based upon their beliefs and values. Howard Slugh has written an article that explains why states need RFRAs. Daniel Conkle, an Indiana University professor, wrote a letter to the editor of the Indianapolis Star expressing his reasons as to why Indiana needs an RFRA. A lawyer from South Bend has offered his analysis as well on his blog. Here is a quick summary of what the Law is and is not.


           My conclusion is that the law is nowhere near the type of thing designed by segregation laws in the south in the pre-1960s ear of the USA. In fact, the law builds in restrictions that would not allow that. I commend political leaders as they recognize the danger that government can be to the free exercise of religion. My secondary conclusion is that the hateful rhetoric by many who oppose the act is misplaced and dangerous. I say misplaced because the presenting issue, sexuality, has not arisen in other states nor with the Federal Government. I say dangerous because, contrary to the intent of those who use such language, the rhetoric I have seen could lead to violence against Governor Pence and to those who voted for the legislation, which include members from both political parties. This sentence was in my original post. What I did not anticipate was the threat of violence against the owner of a little pizza place in southern Indiana. The Wall Street Journal has an editorial in which it refers to the new intolerance. My wonderment is if any of my clergy colleagues will see that their rhetoric is reaching its natural extension to this threat of violence.

           In any case, I find it disturbing that so many can be so hateful against their opponents, whom they accuse of being so hateful. People have turned against their state government quickly, and this reaction has the potential of hurting the state. A rational response would have been to give it a year and see if the fears of opponents become reality. Frankly, if such fears became reality, I would be in favor of its repeal. I also find it puzzling that suddenly in Indiana there is supposed to be this pent-up desire to discriminate against people, especially by conservative Christians against gays. My own view is that most Christians live with difference all the time. We love our family, co-workers, and neighbors, regardless of their what they believe or do. I have the concern that spreading such fear within the gay community through this heated rhetoric will hurt more than help. The rhetoric that spreads fear among certain groups, I suspect, has a political motive to discredit Governor Pence but, broadly, conservatives and Republicans. Those with a political agenda are agitating a situation for political benefit. It seems to me that pastors and churches need to do the hard work of bringing people together rather than driving a wedge. Is that going too far? In other words, the reason for the original federal law and the reason for its application in the states is due to a fear as well, the fear of the state placing an undue burden upon people who are following their religious convictions. This fear has its basis in actual case law, including a decision by the Supreme Court. I guess the question I have, especially for my colleagues, is whether we ought not to be on the side of bringing people together rather than contributing to division.

         Personally, I value individual liberty, and that includes respecting private property rights and freedom of association, as well as the free exercise of religious beliefs. I think America is large and diverse enough to allow for this. If someone does not want my business for whatever reason, I can go down the street and find someone who will. I suppose I have confidence that moral and economic considerations will eventually get to a good place if we allow people the freedom to work this out.

        I close with a few reminders from Paul.

I Corinthians 13:4-7
4  Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant   5  or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;   6  it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth.   7  It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.   8  Love never ends.
Philippians 4:8  Finally, beloved, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is pleasing, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
I Thessalonians 5:13b, Be at peace among yourselves.
Ephesians 4: 29 Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only what is useful for building up, as there is need, so that your words may give grace to those who hear.
 

    
 

30 comments:

  1. Friend on facebook thank you for posting this Pastor George. I was having a hard time understanding what was going on, your post plus the letter to the Indianapolis Star helped clarify the situation. There was one other "thank you George" from an opponent of the law.

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  2. Facebook friend - Thank you Sir. I have changed my position on the Law and deleted the post from my timeline. I don't know if you saw the comments that followed but it was a strorm of devisiveness. I still hold my position that "Christians" don't show the love of Christ in the matter of homosexuality as well other matters outside their comfort zone. "Love the sinner not the sin" yet I don't see love for the sinner either. This law has little to do with samesex marriage and more to do with religious freedom and protection, in this morally reletive world of grey Christians need such protections. Thank you for sharing your thoughts . You helped me find clarification on this issue. - Additionally I would like to ask you this. If you go to a gas station owned by muslims they can now deny you service because you eat pork. Or what if a satanist decides he doesn't like your christian beliefs and denies you service. Although I do see how it protects Christians and religious liberty in general it may be a double edged sword. - I responded Sam, the intent was not necessarily to change anyone's position, but to calm down the rhetoric. The answer, according to the IU lawyer, would be "No" to your Muslim and Satanist, it would not be legal. However, it would be both could make their case to the court. However, as he put it, in the cases you mentioned it is unlikely that any court wouild agree that pumping gas in that situation placed an undue burden. In any case, read the lawyer carefully. Sam, one of the things the lawyer points out is that in other states, the law has protected Muslim, Jewish, and Native American religious practices. - He responded Thanks for your perspective on the matter. I am inclined to believe that this law opens a door to discrimination not to mention it's just a bad fiscal move due to all this blow back and negative press. I enjoyed Mike Plasterers post from wish tv. what do you think about the views stated there. This has got me confused. I can see both sides. I need to find a Biblical perspective without getting involved in the rhetoric. that's why I deleted the post, it became a divisive fire storm of hatred between Christians and homosexuals. Very upsetting to me. I am interested if you fall on the side of the law due to political or religious beliefs or both. I am not clear where these lines should and should not be drawn. As Christians we can't expect to legislate our morality to all. Right? You don't have to respond if there are to many broad questions for you. I will be coming to visit your church soon we can talk then if you have time. - My response please read the first couple of pieces on the blog. The act says nothing about sexuality. The concern is that government may impose legislation on people of faith that would become a burden to the person of faith. The lawyer mentioned that Native Americans, Muslims, and Jews have used this legislation. The Governor has made it clear that if the hought it was discriminatory against anyone, he would not have signed it. The same would be true for me. What I see ahead, without the legislation, is that there will be no recourse for people of faith but to close up their businesses under certain circumstances. The reason for this post was the same as you mentioned. I had hoped that it would add light rather than heat. The Law has nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with respecting the rights of people of faith by the government.

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  3. Facebook friend I just really long for everyone to ratchet down the hyperbole a bit and take a deep breath. Be nice to each other--regardless of where the stand.

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  4. My son posted on facebook: It seems overall that you don't think this law won't change the way Indiana does business with the lgbt community. However, I'm curious what you think about Angie's list decision not to expand here, gencon and many others canceling their events and sports such as final four here. Seems this bill that supposedly doesn't affect the lgbt community is going to have a huge effect on our economy.
    I responded: They are a business and will do what they want. However, the blog was not designed one way or the other, Mike. It was designed to give links for facts. My concern was the heightened rhetoric I was seeing on my news feed. I was hopeful that as facts emerged, the appeals to fears of what might happen in Indiana would subside. I do not think anyone wants discrimination against anyone. I know you may not sense this, but I am concerned with a trend to make people do things that their religion is against. As you probably know, the original reason for this law nationally was not allowing peyote, a drug, to be used in Native American services. There were also concerns then about compeling the Amish that violate their religion. No, I do not think people are just eager to discriminate. In fact, Christians are to love their neighbors, period. It does not matter what they think or how they behave. Your specific question regarding Angie's List is not one I have much knowledge of.

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  5. Son responded on facebook: Your point about heightened rhetoric should not be dismissed and is a valid point to be made. But simply commenting only on the rhetoric and not the issue at hand serves very little purpose I think. There will always be and always has been unhelpful and often times dangerous statements being made on a topic as divisive as this on both sides. But we need to cut through that and see what this bill will ultimately do to this state. We are already seeing businesses pulling out, performers canceling shows and conferences and sporting events canceling. This law only hurts Indiana jobs and its economy. Most of the country now agrees that yes the lgbt community should be a protected class. This bill does nothing to protect their freedoms that they deserve just as anybody else. I personally think it's a calculated move by gov. pence towards finally declaring for the presidency. He wants to appeal to the conservative base. But in the end it's only going to cost Hoosiers jobs and serve to hurt our economy and quite possibly disenfranchise a group of people who don't deserve to be disenfranchised.
    I responded: I personally think it is a calculated move on the part of opponents to take out governor Pence, who has considered running for President. The fact this basic law is in so many states without incident suggests this. Connecticut, which has a similar law, will not have a meeting here? That is hypocritical. By the way, Obama voted for it when it passed in Illinois. However, you mistake my intent in the blog. My intent was to give links for accurate information about what the law will and will not do. If a business is affected by the emotional response of certain people who have a political agenda, then I question the soundness of the business. In any case, one may think what one wishes of the soundness of the law, but one can do so in a way that is respectful and does not assume the worst in those with whom you disagree.

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  6. Son responded on facebook: There are 2 main differences between our law and the others. One is that our law applies to any for profit business. The only other state with that statute is South Carolina. Second, our law also makes it so individuals cannot sue a business if they feel they've been discriminated against. The only other state with that provision is Texas. Those are two major differences in my opinion and are the reason for the outcry. The other states and federal law only have provisions for non profit businesses and churches which I am fine with. Even in some of those states they have provisions which put the lgbt community as a protected class. Simply having a similar name doesn't mean the laws are exactly the same. Yes, I agree the rhetoric could be toned down but let's not forget what this is all about. It's about discrimination but it's also about the harm this law will cause this state.
    I responded: Mike, I understand that, and had you read the links, I have a link that explains the difference between Indiana and other states. However, if a personal were approaching this rationally, one would have a "wait and see" attitude. Let us see if such differences, designed to protect the person with religious beliefs, goes the direction that the fearful think. Instead, people have turned against their own state, driven out business activity, and turned hateful. The slight differences you mentioned do not change the fact that the law is materially the same as the federal law and other state laws, meaning that its design is to protect the free exerise of religion. As I suggest, a rational approach would have been to give it a year and see if what people like you fear will happen actually happens. I would note, again, that Roman Catholics, Sikhs, and Orthodox Jews were present at the private signing. These are the concerns of some.

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  7. Dave Earp Christians are to stand up for injustice ... That's one of the things Israel failed to do according to the prophets .... Your information is not correct on this law. The govt rfra involved the govt violating a person religious beliefs. The Indiana law is broader allowing an individual business owner to deny service to an individual due to beliefs ... this is very different. According to bot the FRC and the AFA these laws are needed so that flower shop owners... wedding cake bakers and so forth can deny service ... I can get you the links if you want. So it is most definitely about the right to discriminate against gay people who want to get married and are going to said shops for service for their wedding. I am not going to argue against the law here as this forum has pretty much made up its mind on this issue. I will state that the lies and deceptions coming from Christians about the intent of these laws do not honor God ... Thou shall not bear false witness. I don't think it is sinful to serve people of different beliefs ... others feel differently ... But it is certainly sinful to lie as some have done about the actual intent of these RFRA laws that are coming out today.

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  8. Dave Earp Basically ....individual business to the public become like church's which can discriminate against anyone according to their beliefs ... this is perfectly acceptable in a church setting to determine memberships ... leadership .. participation and so forth and is immune from any nondiscrimination law. But is has never been acceptable before for businesses to do the same thing until now.

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  9. Wesley Putnam Dave , can you prove your argument without calling those with whom you disagree liars? Show where and how they are wrong. Tell us how Clinton was wrong an how the 19 other states have suffered under this law.

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  10. Peter Harris Should a kosher catering business be forced to cook pork barbecue because someone came in demanding that the catering business not discriminate?

    How far may the government go to deny First Amendment rights in the market place?

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  11. Dave Earp This isn't the same law as what Clinton passed. the lie I am talking about is the intent of the law ... I can get you the links to prove that later ...dont' have time to look them up now.

    As for Peter's question An alternate one due to this law being very broad .. "a persons individual belief" is how far could a business owner go in discriminating ... In other words ... could this law go beyond its intended target and instead target certain conservative Christian beliefs. It is possible that this law will open a pandora's box of reasons to refuse service ... some of which .. we may not like. Time will tell

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  12. David M Battle Could there be a foreshadowing in this hoopla seeking to overturn a well established balance in our nation with a drive to create something analogues to Rev 13:16-17?

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  13. Dave Earp Revelation is apocolyptic literature which uses a lot of symbolism and analogy. People have tried to connect it to events for centuries ... all of them have been wrong and it numbers into the thousands ... So IMHO I don't think it wise to try to make some assumed connection to it now. this law is likely to be changed anyway from what I hear.

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  14. David M Battle The question is an analogy. I have read people in this forum post saying that if one does not want to participate in a ceremony celebrating a specific form of fornication that they do not have the right to own a business. Is that not like forbidding people from buying and selling?

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  15. Dave Earp The law is broader than that ... IMHO a business could discriminate against anti-gay marriage Christians ... remember it allows for any belief ... any = any ... so they would not be discrriminating against Christians specifically ... only against Christians who believe or practice certin things. This could get very messy but again ... .the law is likely to be reworked.

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  16. David M Battle What the big deal? It extends religious conscience to your business. Again to oppose this bill is to forbid people of conscience from owning a business.

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  17. Yes, Greg Greenhill, the Indiana law is different. However, materially, it has the same objective, that of protecting the free exercise of religion. Of course, a judge will decide in each case if discrimination is involved. In any case, my blog, that got this thread started, has links that explain the difference. The question is whether it would lead to the discrimination that opponents say. A rational response would have been to let it go for a year or more and see what happens. That would cool things down a bit. Instead, people are quite ready to their state over this.

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  18. David M Battle Again, all the law does it that it allows a business owner to appeal a government regulation on the bases of religious conscience. I will grant that is new. The right of appeal does not guarantee a favorable ruling. In the grand scheme of things the law is very weak. The only reason to oppose such a law is because one already has the intent to punish those who will stand firm in their moral conscience.

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  19. Dave Earp The law crossed the boundary between church and individual business ... allowing businesses to discriminate for whatever belief the owner has ... if the discrimination violates federal or local civil rights laws then the law is likely limited. Typically places that serve the public whether private or public could not discriminate unless it interfered with their business practice. This is a change ... THe deception is in what was claimed versus what is real ...

    Examples ...

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  20. Greg Greenhill I read your blog George... well written peice I must add... that I think is the question... will Religious Freedom become a sort of I take the fifth in cases involving anti-discrimination laws... I agree... we will see how it plays out... I question the timing of a lot of these laws however... With a SCOTUS ruling set for April, I wonder if lawmakers don't suspect that these laws are in a manner of speaking doomed before they get started.... just a bit of lip service and a waste of resources... we will see... David, the clash between religious freedom and anti-discrimination laws has been messy from the start... there is a lot of messy precident to sort through. There are passionate and intelligent people on both sides of this issue, but I am not sure it is going to play out as simply as either side wants...

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  21. David M Battle Again the homosexual lobby wants to force everyone in business to fear them so that they will either participate in a ceremony celebrating fornication or leave the business world.

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  22. Greg Greenhill David... just stop... your overblown comparisons are insulting and they are making you sound paranoid... taking pictures at a same sex wedding isn't exactly the same as being forced to film a gay porno.... everyone on the other side of this issue from you is not trying to put you out of business... if you really want to focus on people being forced out of business by a particular lobby, try looking into how many small business owners have closed their doors because of big money corporate lobbyists...

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  23. Gloria Delaney I am so sick and tired of "sex" being injected into almost everything these days.....and most especially homosexuality. No matter what the subject is, somebody will find a way to make LGBT relevant and very important.....and of the utmost priority regarding any laws passed or public decisions made. After all, when the smoke clears, only maybe 2% of the population is gay......maybe. How would anyone know? For absolute positive....no more than 15% at the very most, and that number is highly doubtful.

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  24. Mike Plasterer Yes we usually do disagree on these topics but let's make sure we are disagreeing on right topic. I don't think churches should pay for abortions or anything like that because they are a religious Organization that should be protected. What I'm curious about is whether or not you believe that private businesses should be allowed to refuse service to homosexuals. Because that is what this bill allows for and is what is causing the uproar.
    George Plasterer Your question assumes that there are a bunch of people out there ready to jump at the opportunity to do so. I do not believe there are. Your question is a loaded one. I suppose I would need a case. Do you have one?

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  25. Mark SallyClay Smith The uproar over this law is a case study in how perception trumps reality. The left's political machine--including the vast majority of the media--is keenly aware of this and knows that a high enough volume will overpower any objective merits to the bill. It certainly has worked well for the left historically. Once the political narrative is established it must be adhered to at all costs, even if truth is a casualty. After all, it is the "larger truth" that is most important (the actual truth can take a hike).

    The Indiana RFRA is a little more expansive than the federal RFRA, and therefore may be modified, but in general it is a pretty weak law. It does not give anyone a carte blanche license to discriminate, it merely provides the option of appealing to a state statute to protect religious conscience (made necessary by the 1997 removal of federal RFRA protections from states). The law is largely a restatement and reiteration of the 1st Amendment. The biggest motivation for not discriminating unjustly is not a law, or lack of a law, it is CONSCIENCE and THE FREE MARKET. Both will work if we let them.

    To those who think they can divine a motive behind this legislation I simply would say two things: 1) you can speculate all day about motive and never get close to the truth; 2) motive is irrelevant, the legislation itself is.

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  26. Mike Plasterer I would say the easiest cases would be the examples of florists and bakers not serving gay people. But unfortunately this bill also would extend to restaurants, stores and such because of the wording of the bill. Which is why there is the uproar and why now even the governor himself is having to revisit this bill.
    George Plasterer Mike, my belief is that the Republicans in Indiana should have stuck close to the federal law and focused on the government not engaging in practices that violate conscience, which would equate with religious belief. Your interpretation of the wording is the result of the fear or assumption you have that many people are out there who want to deny service to people. I do not think that is the case. That is why I think a reasonable approach would be to see if business owners interpret the law the way you do. Of course, the other step would be to then see if the courts would interpret the law the same way. I do not think the law applies in the way you suggest, which is why the governor is going to clarify to be sure that is the case. What I find amazing is the totalitarian approach the opponents have. To use your example, if I have a professional skill that involves me laboring for hours for my clients, I ought to be "comfortable" doing that. I ought to have the right not to take on a client if I am not. To use a non-sexual example, if a member of the KKK wanted me to officiate at a wedding, including the use of the hoods, I would want the freedom not to perform the wedding. Now, stressing the investment of my personal time and creativity, why would that person want me if I was not "comfortable" in that setting? I would apply the same principle to other professions. Such an example of a profession that involves specific skills is far better than restaurants, etc. The 1964 civil rights bill took care of that for such settings. In other words, my question is back to you. Let us say that you are gay and want someone to organize the wedding. Let us say you walk in with your partner. If that is person is not comfortable for any reason, why would you want to force them to accept you? Why would you want to drive them out of business? The totalitarian streak in all of this is quite disconcerting. BTW, I realize that while the Left likes to point to Christians, especially evangelical Christians, as the bad person here, but let us suppose you walked into an establishment owned by an Orthodox Jew? Muslim? They would have a far stronger negative response than most evangelical Christians would have. As a side issue, not addressing to you personally but in general, I find it amazing that a business like Apple is banning Indiana, while it has just shaped a deal with Saudi Arabia, who has just imprisoned (killed) someone for being gay. Many of the entainers who have come out against Indiana will also go to dubai and other places in the Muslim world. You know how they treat women and gays.

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  27. Mike Plasterer The last part here of your comment I can see the confusion. I think What they are doing is inciting social change here in Indiana because it is actually possible as opposed to the Middle East where, let's face it, is probably not going to happen. In general, I agree with you that we shouldn't be doing business with those kinds of people, but try telling that to the people that need to put gas in their tank. But what these companies, organizations and celebrities are trying to do is show opposition to a law that could lead to discrimination. Your point about officiating a KKK rally doesn't really apply either. Religion is a protected class in the federal form of the bill, hence you would never be forced to officiate any wedding you feel goes against your religious beliefs. I agree that Orthodox Jews and Muslims would use this bill as well to discriminate against homosexuals, not only evangelical Christians. I don't know if a thousand businesses would ban homosexuals or if absolutely zero of them would. But the fact remains that as it's written now, it allows for discrimination which is unacceptable in my opinion. I'm sure blacks in the south felt "more comfortable" going to all black restaurants and schools. But that doesn't make it right either. We are a melting pot, and often times we have to deal with people we don't like or lifestyles we don't approve of. Our diversity is part of what makes the country great and it should be celebrated not discriminated. This bill doesn't need to be dismantled, it simply needs to make sure the lgbt community is protected just like religion, race, gender and nationality already are.
    George Plasterer Michael, your assumption that refusal to offer professional services on moral grounds is "discrimination" in the sense is quite wrong. You can love someone and at the same time offer your approval of what they believe or what the do. You are making my point. If you are right about the law as written, a rational approach would be to let the law stand for a year or so and see if anyone uses it in the way you describe. My point of using myself was to illustrate what offering professional services means in contrast to walking into a restaurant or other store. So let me take it out of the "religion" realm and make the point clearer. If someone offers professional services that a KKK group wants, does that person have to offer the service? In the case of evangelical Christians, it would be a violation of all moral code. This law, as understand, protects that professional from compulsion to serve. Now, I understand that that the KKK is not a "protected" class, but the point is that conscience and religious belief may lead one to deny service in certain cases. It is the personal time and creativity that one may not be comfortable offering to certain persons. So, in the UMC at present, I am not permitted by church law to marry gay couples. However, that does not mean discrimination. It means a moral difference.

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  28. Mike Plasterer I know you said it already but there is a huge difference between the KKK and homosexuals. The KKK are not a protected class. However, homosexuals are both federally and in most states. So, no I'm not going to make a picture of a lynching for a customer on a cake in my bakery. And if for some reason any couple, gay or straight, want something on their cake I don't feel comfortable making then I can refuse that service as well. What I can't do as a baker is not sell a cake to someone whose lifestyle, religion etc. I might not agree with. That sends us down a dangerous path of exclusion, which benefits nobody. I don't want to wait to see if anybody will actually exclude homosexuals from their business. Let's do what apparently gov pence is going to do and amend the law to make it clear that we as Hoosiers are not going to discriminate against anybody. That is the only way to save face here. We are seeing gov pence backtrack for a reason. The law was not well thought out and nobody looked ahead to the possible repercussions of the law. So simply amend it like, even gov pence says is necessary, and we don't have to deal with this public relations nightmare anymore. I realize the difference between it being a "moral difference" in the umc and it being called discrimination when in public venues. The church has the right to accept who it chooses. However, public business does not have that same legal right. That is not opinion, that is the law of the land.
    George Plasterer It seems to me that you are avoiding a question I have, but I may not have made my question clear. I will shapen the question. If you were gay, walk into any professional's office or business, and the person is not comfortable offering you the service, why would you want them forced to serve you? Suppose the professional is not comfortable because of their religious beliefs. It would violate their conscience. Suppose the person is a Muslim. Why would you want to drive the person out of business? I am greatful for the protection the first amendment provides, but other nations do not have them. Most of the countries in Europe do not. Pretend that is the case here. No first amendment. Should the government force me to provide the service to a gay couple? If I do not, should I be in jail? Should be driven out of business? What I am trying to get at is that the issue is no longer the achievement of tolerance, which thankfully is here. The issue now is forcing obedience from people who have differing views morally on what form of sexuality honors God and each other. I posted an article that deals with the new form of intolerance, done in the name of tolerance. It will take some time, but you might want to read it.

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  29. Mike Plasterer I think I answered that question a few comments ago but I'll answer it again. In the segregated south, I'm sure blacks felt "more comfortable" going to all black restaurants or to restaurants where they were "accepted". However, and I'm sure you agree, that wasn't enough. It took the courts and legislation to bring the south out of segregation. Sure there were places that blacks could go but there were still places they couldn't go. That's not acceptable in a pluralistic society. Again, I draw a distinction between the church and public venues. A church can exclude whoever they want. That is their religious right. But if you want to operate in the public square, that's where that freedom ends. You can't discriminate against people in that manner. Again, that's not just me talking but that's the law of the land. If I were gay, I wouldn't want to have to figure out which businesses accept me and which don't. Trust me, I don't like everyone I serve at work. But I still have to serve them. It's part of working in a public venture like I do. The same applies to the baker or florist or whatever that doesnt approve of the "homosexual lifestyle". So that should answer your question. If you don't think comparing blacks and gays is accurate because people "choose" to be gay, that's another discussion we can have. But suffice it to say, obviously I think people are born with their sexuality just as they are born black. But even if you disagree with that, it should still be illegal to discriminate against them in the public arena. It seems gov pence agrees too now that he's gotten this backlash and put a stain of discrimination on our state. He's saying to add an addendum that allows for protecting homosexuals from being discriminated against in public businesses. So it's not just us lefties anymore either that have an issue with this bill.
    Mike Plasterer I guess I didn't answer part about what should happen to businesses that would discriminate against gays. I'd say the same thing should happen as if they were to say we don't serve blacks, Jews or Christians. Yes you can be sued for discrimination, which could mean losing your business. But I'd stop short of jail. Not that far. But if you operate in the public arena in the United States it is unacceptable to discriminate against your customers. By the way, one of the provisions in the bill takes away the right of someone taking a business to court when they have been discriminated against by a company. That's a right everyone should have.
    Mike Plasterer By the way there is already a pizza parlor in southern Indiana that is refusing service to homosexuals because of this bill. How do you feel about that? You said just yesterday that wouldn't happen because intolerance is a thing of the past.

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  30. George Plasterer So you are a totaliarin, then. I get t. Sorry to hear about that.
    George Plasterer As to the Pizza Parlor, if true (which I doubt), they would have to defend themselves in a court and have the judge rule in their favor. I think my point earlier was not that it would not happen, but that it as not the design of the law for it to happen and that if it did, then the law should be changed.

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